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Narcissistic Men Need Positive Male Role Models

One of the biggest relationship mistakes I used to make was thinking that;

1. If a man loved and cared about me.
2. He would never do things I didn’t like.

The truth is that most men (and women for that matter) expect that

1. If you love them.
2. And they love something (even if it is porn or another woman or man).
3. You should love it too.

Some people even have a saying for this and call it,

‘Loving them for who they are’.

Loving a person for who they are is all well and good in theory – but what if ‘who they are’ is sometimes selfish, immature and thinking they know everything even when they are heading 100 mph straight into a brick wall?

My problem was that back then I didn’t understand ‘Daddy Love’.

In brief my theory on this is that a person will do just about anything to win the love (and avoid the scorn) of a father figure who they look up to and want respect from.

Was Daddy Home?

So if your partner is misbehaving it may be more to do with bad parenting than anything else.

Q: Does this mean you should get their real dad on the phone and give him a serve?

A: Definitely not!

Correcting your father-in-law’s parenting mistakes is NOT your role and may cause even more trouble in your home. Because even if your partner doesn’t like their dad – deep down they will probably still consider him ‘the boss’ much more than you.

So what to do when you live with a person who will not be told that what they are doing is wrong?

My answer is simple (but not easy) and that is to find one or two new father figures in their life who would disapprove.

Another mistakes I made early in my marriage was thinking I would never get Steve along to church.

So it was to my surprise that the first time I organized us to go – not only did Steve not complain, but even though he had never been to church in his life, he loved it.

That was a real surprise to me – but you see I had underestimated the daddy love factor – something I know now never to do.

Outside of church I also introduced Steve to an older man in our community with passionate interests they both shared, as well as selecting an apartment block to move into with kindly elderly neighbors.

In time, as Steve made friends with these new older men – that I had made a point of surrounding him with – suddenly I found I had leverage with him.

Instead of saying – “you wouldn’t do that if you loved me” Instead I could say “I hope I won’t have to talk to —– about your problem with —–. I am worried about you!” which I guess in daddy love speak translates as ‘stop that now or I am going to tell dad!’

Q: Was it easy finding positive male role models for Steve?
A: No it wasn’t.
Q: Was it effective?
A: 100%!

Now don’t get me wrong, because I don’t believe church is a simple solution, because there are many churches filled with narcissistic men whose influence may only make things worse. The trick is that you need to look at the men themselves and decide if they are they kind of people you would look up to and trust as a father yourself?

Steve and I changed churches 4 times until we found a very warm and loving group of older people who made us feel at home.

My son resisted for a while and said that he didn’t have the same beliefs as our new church – and so I said to him “Well then it will be great practice for you every week learning to keep your mouth shut!”

A year or so later he told me that he likes going to church because the people there are so warm. I said “Do you believe the same things they do about God now?” and he said, “No not completely, but now I know it really doesn’t matter – because most religious people are very careful not to ask too many questions about your beliefs, because I don’t think most of them want to argue about it anyway. People say religious people are intolerant, but I find my teachers at school are much less tolerant of different ideas about what powers the universe and where we came from than the people at church are.” (okay – I admit it – I am probably sharing this because, wow was I proud of my boy!)

I know that there are many religious people who will disagree and think that it’s important to believe strictly what they are taught in church – but where is the virtue in that?

People are not drawn together by sharing beliefs. In fact I believe that beliefs divide us more than just about anything else can.

It’s values on the other hand that bring us together.

So if people ask me what church I go to – I don’t usually tell them the denomination. I just say I go to the church in our area were I found people who were the best role models I could find for my family (and if their family is in crises I suggest that they do the same). And the fact that I think the people at our church are good role models obviously means there are many common values that we believe are important (courtesy, modesty, appreciation etc.) so that whatever differences I might hold in my personal beliefs, that really matters very little in the end.

Because I believe that the biggest enemy of spirituality is ego – and so the last thing I want is to be egotistical about is my spiritual beliefs!

And I certainly don’t believe that church is the only place to find Daddy love.

In fact I spend time looking for good male role models just about everywhere. Because even though my kids now have a great father – I don’t believe a family can get too much of it.

Of course Mama love counts too – and I am also always on the look out for good female role models too – but in a perfect world I believe that Mama love should be less about discipline and more about creating a life full of love…

More about that some other time perhaps, along with the challenge of setting boundaries with a bad father-in-law.

But for now I suggest that you start looking around and noticing how powerfully men are motivated (for better or worse) by love and attention from older men.

Kim is the author of seven books on the topic of relationships and emotional intelligence.

A prolific multi-media content innovator, Kim has created and shared a library of articles and multi-media educational tools including radio shows,
movies and poetry on 'The NC Marriage', and 'The Love Safety Net'.

This Post Has 48 Comments

  1. I could have used a better father figure(and mother figure) myself. Although my childhood home life was better and say more mature than my husbands, I found I had to get away from my family to grow up as much or hopefully as well as I did after leaving(here it’s at age 18). And just as Kim mentioned I could still use a good parental figure at age 50. I want to continue helping myself and my husband as time goes on and new challenges are faced.

  2. kim, i am married to a narcissistic sociopath. i have order ebooks from you but i can tell you he is very sadistic and i cannot do this anymore. i have been thru hell and im going to try to break free if i can! i may have to live in my car in the woods but i think he is a reprobate out of the bible.

    1. Hi Donna, You need to plan this very carefully before you leave and living in your car in the woods is not a good plan. Please read through the ideas in Back From the Looking Glass on how to leave safely and then start looking up women’s shelters in your area, preferably on a computer at your local library.

  3. I love this! How helpful. It also helps me see why our church isn’t helping my husband, there’s not a good male role model without ego there. Now I have a job to do 🙂 At least my husband has a bond with my dad, although he enables him with money. Still, it’s a help because he’s a man of character besides giving too much and enabling my husband’s lack of order. MB

  4. I find that the narcissist in my life wants me to be his mother. Does things to illicit correction and then complains of being criticized. I don’t want to be a mother to a husband but that’s what the narcissist wants.

    1. You may not want that but as your husband is developmentally stuck that is probably what he needs. One option is to learn how to be a very good mother and help him grow up and become mature. Good mothers do not keep their children immature and dependent so taking this path may help him to grow out of this which will also obviously benefit you.

  5. I have found much wise and helpful on your sites, but this one aspect has always struck me as a no-go zone. I think somewhere else Kim mentions talking to your partner’s boss. I could never ever imagine doing that. And if anyone did that to me, I would instantly leave them. Also, my husband (when we were still together) had a wall up against social criticism. If I even tried the slightest suggestion of “what would your parent’s think?,” he would just say, “I don’t care.” (Repeated as often as necessary – he viewed it as a sign of his confidence that he didn’t rely on other people’s opinions.) And my experience is that if someone is friends with your husband, they don’t want to get involved with your situation. They will say to themselves, they are not on the inside. You may seem rational to them, but they are not inside the relationship.

    1. Yes Ellen you certainly need to be careful with this but it depends what the situation is, who the person is and how you phrase it.

      If Steve was behaving irresponsibly in a way that would effect his responsibility towards his job then I believe talking to his boss may be very appropriate. I always try and make it clear however that this should not be done lightly and should always express concern for your partners well being rather than being you ‘tattling’.

      If I had a husband who was a surgeon and was going to work drunk for instance I think it would be a matter of ethics to discuss that problem with his employers before something terrible happened and everyone involved got in much worse trouble.

      I also need to clarify that I am not talking about using your partners parents and friends as leverage. In Back From the Looking Glass I even specifically advise against this. If you partners father has not been a positive influence on their behavior by now it is unlikely they will ever be and there is a strong likelihood they will side against you if you try this. Likewise their friends are probably more of the problem more than the solution.

      What I am talking about here is a very special kind of relationship with an older father role model figure who has very solid values,and I have found most narcissistic people actually crave this type of relationship. Once that relationship is formed and nurtured it is unlikely you will ever need to talk to that person anyway. Your warning of “I hope I won’t have to” will probably be enough and will work as a mirror for their own conscience more than anything. This works on a personal level too. I have my own ideal mother and father figures in my imagination and they are great for my conscience. If I want to improve my own behavior all I have to ask myself is what would they think of what I am planning to do?

  6. I agree with Kim on this. When I need to make a point, it’s way more effective to talk about what an older man he respects would do than anything else. And we do have to carefully craft our words. The “if you loved me you would…” perspective just doesn’t work. They’ll just turn it back on you, like Kim says. Take care of your own needs inside yourself first so you aren’t vulnerable, then make your point very objective.

  7. My husband and I are separated at the moment. I have tried the Daddy Love. He will not go see a counselor and he is smarter than everyone I entroduce him too.(according to him). I have filed for a legal separation because he is giving me no support. He believes if he neglects me enough I will come back. So any suggestions?

    1. Hi Sandy, Unfortunately there are no simple solutions to this problem – but filing for divorce is not a way to win him back. It is easy to think that threatening divorce may make a person wake up to themselves – but really it will just damage the trust between you. If you want to divorce go ahead and do so but please be careful that you also end the conflict as divorce can also make that escalate rather than solve it. One way or another I think you would really benefit from the steps and exercises in our Steps to peaceful Home package.

  8. My husband grew up in a fatherless home and whilst his mother and older siblings did the best they could, his mom spent a great deal of time cleaning other people’s home to keep food on their table. I think that apart from obvious absence of a father or father figure, he had to deal with an ‘absent’ mother, too.
    We do have a good older father figure and thanks to your article, I’ve just asked him to give him a surprise call. Thanks Kim!

  9. Thanks you so muc, kim, for this insight. I am so glad you are addressing the importance of a good dad / older-man who is confident with his values for the men / boys growing up to be husbands & fathers. I teach in an all-boys school and have been trying to find good male role models….good male techers are one answer, but we don’t have enough male teachers…as you said, it was difficult, but worth pursuing. Many thanks again for your commitment.

  10. My husband never got along with his Dad had no patience to deal with him. His Dad was only a figure to him that would come and punish him or spank him as a kid. As an adult he didn’t give him much of his time. He one time had him record a story about his life but after that never showed him allot of attention just put up with him. I know my husband being the NPD likes older men to talk with and gets along with him just not his Dad. He did enjoy his grandfather (his Dad’s Dad) but lived far away so didn’t see him much. My husband has never been a good father figure to our son and is not close with him either no patience to correspond with him either. Its a sad situation he gets along fine with his male friends and his son in law. But he has had problem with male neighbors (does ok with elderly ones only) I wish my Dad was still alive and lived closer he might of listented to my Dad.

  11. Hi, I had to find substitute mothers for myself in life. My parents were like teenagers in love they didn’t talk to the kids…just mostly to themselves. I agree that a church can give a foundation of love that helps meet the needs of people so if they can’t get the love they want from the family/spouse they can still be well and feel accepted/valued/loved. It takes a village to raise a child and help an adult heal. God is real. I don’t think God wants us to understand everything about the universe or him…but the greatest commandment is to love. My bumpersticker on my car says: Life is the teacher…love is the lesson. I agree narcissitic people may have felt abandoned and need to learn to give/receive love. Modeling helps. Thanks for your site! Happiness….

  12. “People are not drawn together by sharing beliefs. In fact I believe that beliefs divide us more than just about anything else can.

    “It’s values on the other hand that bring us together.”

    Kim you are *so* right … I am going to keep this quote as a reminder!

  13. Kim,

    It sounds like you are recommending a father figure to re-parent a Narcissistic husband or boyfriend. I fully agree that men need a masculine role model to mature into manhood.

    What about the Narcisstic wife? Does one locate a mother figure to re-parent a female narcissist?

    1. Yes certainly – but women need strong fathers too! I think the influence of mothers and fathers is slightly different. This doesn’t need to be stereotyped either – just balanced!

  14. Kim, I am so glad you’re talking about the importance of men in society.

    Truly, I think some people in positions of influence have thought that they could only raise up women by putting down men.

    Nothing could be further from the truth!

    We women need strong, wise, kind men just as much as they need us.

    Thank you for explaining so well how valuable men are–not just as biological fathers, but as fathers in the community.

  15. Kim,
    What a great way to build community to help the family of a Narcissistic husband. You were so right when you said to bring men in who my husband respects and worries about their opinion of him in a fatherly way. It was very awkward at first, following the steps in From the Looking Glass, but I did them 123, 123. And your recommendations absolutely helped me saved my marriage. One of the only ways I got added on to his (our only) checking account was by bringing in his mentor, a loving man 10 years older than my husband. He encouraged my husband it was the right thing to do. It took a year and my husband fought me and threatened to divorce me, but in the end the friend got through to him. I just had to stay consistent and work the steps. Church is a fantastic place to build those types of relationships. It just takes time and one can not lose heart. Thank you Kim!

  16. From a different angle, my husband was an “absentee father”, even though always physically present. Our son was an athlete, and his father was a hunter/fisherman. They had nothing in common. My husband continually browbeat him b/c he wasn’t a hunter. My husband was a man of strong work ethic, an admirable quality,and when our son was old enough to work, he got a job. He went to college, and then pursued the Corporate America ladder becoming a work-a-holic. With each step up, he prayed that his Dad would give him one word of encouragement. It never happened. He told me, at the age of 40, that if his Dad would just once say “Good job, son” that he would stop seeking his approval and the obsession with working and financial success. This is how powerful the impact of a “father’s love and acceptance” is. Sadly, not many Dad’s recognize the importance of their role, and the acceptance of their child for who God made them. A mother cannot praise or encourage their child enough to make up for the Dad’s lack.

  17. I have been round and round with this alcohol not only did he loose his job recently due to this but his banking is now overdrwn $100. I recently bailed him out financially but only because he askd and had done the same for me back when the economy was better And i wasn’t good at banking. Last year I got my own account. I am learning to ignore the bad bhavior but the ignoring and isolation makes me so angry. I am not paying the account. I told him I want a divorce he is trying to make up but there isn’t much to making up these days. Usually its intamacy in which he ends up demeaning me if I consent to therefor I have just insisted to him there is no reason to go on… I am going to Alanon to have friends and people to stay in touch, support. I haven’t many friends due to the treatment when I would get home. Theese days no children at home a 22 year old step son who also drinks a whole lot and drinks with his dad And they are both disrepctful. Like father like son. I know the codependency is my big problem because I don’t want to be accused of sleeping around. I just stay home and get the isolation treatment or if I go and get home he leaves and comes back all drunk. Damned either way. Tire after 15 years. I want to save my money totake a trip to NZ my daughter is now there from the states, I’ve paid off my car recently but he’s holding us back always one thing or another. I used to drink and ssmoke a lot but had a hard time dealing with a blended family raising each of our two kids four total without any help from our exes Android I mean no help. Now I’m not into drinkin partying I have goals desires which he SAYS he wants to go with to visit Wanaka but I doubt it by the ways he acts just likes to sabatoge. Going to church this week all alone if I must. I have you love safty net and the stupidity what next???? Thanx for listening. God bless. Deanna

  18. Kim,
    This is so true because his father was away much for his work. Then he died an early death and my husband never really had that solid fatherly role model. When I finally started to inform other family members of his NPD and what he does to me & our marriage, which is hard to do by the way, it was very scary & humbling for me. But I pressed through my fear because I knew how I was trying to manage before wasn’t working and I had became isolated.

    After much reluctance I first told his mother. He is the first born and only son…so I did not know what kind of reaction I was going to get. I had explained that he really needed a father to guide him (a grown man in his 40s!). To my surprise, she seemed more concerned about me leaving the family and how much she loved me and how much a good wife I had been for him.

    I recently learned that after our conversation, she had approached another male in the family about a year ago to help guide him. Although this man is younger, I believe it’s a very good start until we’re able to find an older male that would be willing to be there for him.

    So this is an ongoing process and this is where I am on the NPD journey.

    Kim, I can’t thank you enough for all your work and resources! I’ve benefitted greatly and able to find sense in all of this!

  19. Wow, so sad to read about.How sad someone with this disorder cannot see what they do. I have been married for 25 years and recently separated. Out of the blue one day my husband told me he wanted a separation. A month prior to this he was talking about how content he was. Never know what to expect. He just up and abandoned me and my older children said he didn’t care about the house or anything anymore. I later learned he had been texting a female and became obsessed with her after 1 week of texting and after only talking to her for 1 week. As I have read about from your many articles that they can be secretive and doing things behind your back. How long do you continue to allow them to hurt you? Its a sick kind of love when they tell you they love you, but continue to do such hurtful things. Exhausted!

  20. This makes a lot of sense. My father-in-law always worked two jobs. When my hub’s parent got divorced, his dad abandoned the kids for 2 years because he was intimidated by the mother. I think since the mother was the head of the house, he respected what she though of his behavior. When she died, it was a downward spiral. I always felt like he started having narcissistic behavior problems because his mom wouldn’t see his behavior if she was gone. I finally talked to his older sister after my children told her what was going on. She was very supportive. She told me to get support and then helped by directing him to chill out and treat his family right.

  21. There is so much positive advice here! Some which I have learnt myself – such as allowing my husband to be mentored by older men, and learning not to “mother” him, which seemed to keep him immature, whilst pandering to his whims.

    He being a little younger and not really ready to be a parent, did not help me with our children much when small. He was a reald workaholic, so we saw him rarely, unless we worked with him, on his terms. I remember well, keeping my children up late as small children to see him at night, before they were school-age.

    To give him his due, he had matured enough by the time the kids were teenagers to take over a bit, by which time I was becoming physically & emotionally exhausted. He was better with teenagers, I felt.
    I then realised I had chronic-fatigue, could no longer work, but I found art, as a therapy. This was however, only the beginning of a rather dark period for me, which I would not have survived with out counselling and prayer, and many good friend’s support, from my church family, in particular.

    After 33 years of marriage, we are now, a relatively contented (grandparent) couple, after many years of turmoil, during which I wanted to give up hundreds of times. My bottom-line thought was often, that I wanted my kids to have their father, as I had lost mine. And now we share our grandchildren, too!

    A damaged couple can make for a difficult marriage, but which can be healed, but it takes a lot of patience and perseverance on the part of both, and giving up of much more than many are willing to do.

    My husband proved to be my poison, but also my antidote, in the long run. If I had given up years ago, I would never have seen the benefits now!

  22. While i agree this is good advice and it does work. The thing that sticks in my mind is the individuals responsibilty and values. If you value honesty, integrity and partnership, you won’t behave like this to start with. So in effect your actually challenging their values and getting the person to change based on approval of an older male. A person worthy of me, wants my approval not some strange neighbour or buddy more than he values mine. I needed to learn alot in life also, but i took the responsibility to do so of my accord. By standing true to my values and actively seeking a better standard of people to associate with. Why can’t an immature male be capeable of that? I’m done mothering these people. They either choose of their own accord to learn better management of their lives, in which they seek the assistance they require or they take their foolish destructiveness elsewhere. If it were my child i’d make an acception but a husband? .. How would i ever ‘approve’ of him, if i had to go to those lengths to teach him how to behave logically and respectfully and responsibly.
    I respect the article, i appreciate it’s merit, but i think councilling people to tolerate this behaviour will generally result in them being further harmed by this dangerous individual.
    Ofcourse it’s always a free choice, i made mine, i left him, and now i demand all the values i have to be shared by those close to me. It’s alot easier and it works without all the effort and pain and risk. So while i appreciate this article, these people aren’t children stop treating them like one. If they don’t share your values.. don’t bother.

    1. Hi Jo,

      Before a person can make the choice to be honest I think there needs to be some level of expectation in them that the people around them will be trustworthy and play fair. If this has not been a person’s experience growing up, I disagree that it is a matter of choice to work on this. I believe it is more a matter of faith and trust.

      I also disagree that just leaving and demanding people live up to your expectations (if they want a relationship with you) is easier. What if you share children for instance and what if the people around you continue to disappoint you? To me that seems quite a risk and also a huge effort in policing the behavior and standards of people so you can decide where it is safest to ‘invest’ your love.

      Of course it’s a free choice, but is deciding who you love and are attracted to really something you can realistically be that logical about? I do not see love and parenting as condescending or a chore. When I see that a person I love has parts of their character that are under developed (and that I can hopefully help nurture to maturity) I only hope that they will be as caring and understanding of my own “blind spots”.

      Jo, I also notice that you say that you are okay about us having different ideas – but then you say point blank that I should stop treating people like children. I would challenge you on that and ask if you teach an adult to play the piano if that means you are treating them like a child? Or if people around you sometimes behave like children what else are you to treat them as? Consumer disposables? I love children and find that many of the children I know have better manners than adults(!) and so which ever way I look at it I end up back at the same place. We all have our gaps and we all have to decide which relationships we want to put energy into.

      How someone makes you feel is one reason to form a connection, but that alone can be a tenuous bond. Shared values is another – but can also be limiting if the people you connect with cannot live up to your expectations or are not on the same path of growth. A shared commitment to achieving a similar goal is another but depending on the goal can obviously have draw backs as well. Humans are notoriously bad at knowing how the objectives they set for themselves will really make them feel in the end.

      So for myself I have chosen a combination of accepting myself and learning to regulate my own emotions so that I feel okay without needing someone else to care for me emotionally – while still being open to it when Steve or anyone else I trust makes me feel good. Then by making my life’s goal the personal quest to develop and nurture my own, my family and my community’s best inner qualities – I feel I get the best of both worlds. This does challenge other people’s values for sure and sometimes makes people really mad at me and sometimes for seemingly no reason.

      I understand why that happens now however and sometimes, yes the answer is to avoid them in future. If this is a person in my wider community of course that decision can be made more easily than if it is someone closer to me. Learning to read what people’s true emotions are can be a challenging skill to learn but in the end is what is easier (and gives a better outcome for everyone) in my mind. For instance people who are angry are often masking fear and people will often throw blame around when they feel embarrassed. Coming out and saying “I know you are scared that you may have made the wrong decision – but that is okay there are not only two paths and your choices are in front of you now, not in your past” or “Hey I can see you feel embarrassed about what happened and I do want you to take some of the responsibility for that – but I am here and what I really want is to help make sure that never happens again, because I don’t like it either that you are feeling this way.”

      So sorry if this has become a lecture – I hope not! Disagreement is a very creative space if it can be managed with respect and if the truth is allowed to come out. I hope that you are really feeling okay about the choices you have made Jo. It is totally understandable to leave someone who has hurt you. We are not just about ‘sticking in there’ here. Really this space is about coming to feel you have some control of your emotional life and coming to feel at peace in yourself.

  23. Hi Kim, I can’t begin to tell you just how much you are helping me in this journey. I’m at the point I’m a tiny bit able to be thankful for all that I’ve been through with a narcissist husband ONLY because without it I might never have owned up to my own co-dependence problem. I do hate EVERYTHING having to do with narcissism but reading your articles ( and I just did start reading the book you suggested about collecting & attaching your children & using it on your narcissist spouse) has opened my eyes to my self & what I need to do to become healthy. I recently realized from reading that book, that my husband really has no relationship with his mother. He never attached to her- no wonder he can’t attach to me. He totally substituted a relationship with her with attachment to his peers. I recently asked him how he would describe his relationship with his mom & he said ” detached but amicable”! Wow. He’s the kind of person who hates anything to do with psychology & doesn’t think he has any problems with his parents, but I’m shocked that he actually was aware that he is detached from his mom. There is an older man at church that I’d like for my husband to get to know, but he’s only been to church with me & our son a handful of times in the past 7 years or so, so I’m gonna pray about this & hope for the best. Trying to guilt him into going has the opposite effect. Things have gotten a tiny bit better since im trying not to expect him to fulfill me & am standing up for making my own decisions & having my own opinions ( that I’m not willing to be a pushover).Thanks SO much for sharing all that you do, & for all the hard work & dedication you put into this. It’s really making a difference in my life & I’m sure, in so many other lives as well. May God continue to bless you & your family.

  24. Kim and Steve:

    I am so thankful to God for you and your information. I really believe I was led to your website at the right time– when I could digest the information and apply it. I have read all your books AND your recommended books (Daniel Goleman– have not read all of them yet but oh so insightful; I loved the book Hold on to your kids by Gordon Neufeld and Gabor Mate– don’t recall if you recommended Parent Effectiveness Training by Dr. Thomas Gordon but it totally complements the information you have). My big problem has been co dependency– and I must confess I had it in the worst way. I was a real pushover. But now, over time, with education I have started to stick up for myself, learned to say no to things I really don’t want, and actually express if I feel unhappy or hurt rather than lock everything up inside to avoid rocking the boat– I was so afraid of abandonment and rejection. So afraid to be rejected if I said I didn’t agree. This of course kept me dishonest in my relationships– acting happy when I really wasn’t — and feeling very depressed as a result. Even suicidal at times. But I was driven by fear. I was incapable of a true mutually satisfying relationship because i was terribly immature emotionally. I could not leave my SO because I was afraid to be alone. And as you can imagine my dependent emotional behavior aggravated his narcissistic behavior. He was so frustrated. He tried to make me mad. He called me names. He wanted me actually to engage and express some disagreement and my own opinion. Instead I always ended up apologizing even though I had really done nothing. Our relationship has dramatically improved over the last two years. He does periodically break down into tantrums but nothing like before. AND he is sort of indirectly apologizing when it happens. He acknowledges that he says terrible things when angry and he does feel bad about it. He can’t sleep when it happens because he thinks about how bad he made me feel. I am also much happier in my relationships at work as I am improving in my boundary setting skills. My job satisfaction is so much higher. As a Christian I wanted to forgive my mother whose schizoid/ narcissistic/severe verbal and emotional abuse not to mention constant spanking resulted in my overly compliant codependent pushover emotional stagnation. By Gods grace I have forgiven and because of your help I am trying to create something that never existed. An actual relationship with my mother. I am setting boundaries. She knows I will not stick around , visit or talk to her if she treats
    me badly– while she has not directly apologized or expressed sorrow for how she hurt me she has said she wished she would have done things differently. And maybe she was a little hard. She sees not only me but how my younger sister has major issues– she actually is trying to an extent. She periodically offers to buy me lunch and periodically buys me gifts. She never never did anything at all for me as a child– so this I consider major progress. Thank you again for letting me ramble here . God bless you for the lives you are helping.

    1. Hi Anne, I feel moved to hear how far you have come. Thanks so much that you took the time to share!

  25. Ok, Just read a bunch of post and feeling deeply crushed and spirit hurt. I am so confused is it me or him? He has moved out wanting a “unconventional marriage” only on weekends. wants all the benefits of marriage but none of the responsibility. I get pushed easily. I get verbal and yell and scream obscenities. He is soooo cool, collected, self righteous passive aggressive. Loves to get my goat. If i do something he doesn’t like RETALIATION BABY! second marriage for both of us. His daughters have no contact with him and son limited. I never see nor does he take me to spend time with any of them but he is all up into my friends and family. I have resentment building with this I am angry, scared, confused, disappointed, hurt. He moved out with the excuse of starting a new work project with someone who needed motivational support. The truth is this someone is a single retired batchlor with tons of money and a really fine house.

  26. Hey celesta!
    Please don’t feel alone, for you are not. I can feel your pain and suffering. I don’t know if it’s wrong or right, I do in some ill gotton way feel comfort with my reactions to things going/gone on that I know the underlying emotions are right. I’ve grown to understand with Kim & Steve’s guidance that though the emotions are justified and getting them out of my system – out of me are good, it comes down to the manner of how we do it. And really in the end it’s about how it effects our health, our growth, our maturity.

    Kim & Steve have ‘Great’, real life experience material that I can sense you’ll benefit greatly from. If I were you, and you sound like a fighter like me, start with ’10 Steps To Overcome Co-dependence’ and the ’13 Steps Towards a Peaceful Home’ package.

    Hope to hear from you again!

  27. Enjoyed reading through this, very good stuff, thanks . “Management is nothing more than motivating other people.” by Lee Iacocca.

  28. Hey Everyone!
    Make sure you check out Kim & Steve’s updated home page. They add things periodically to help us. I’ve just viewed an added video/movie and it really helps me with my current dilema. Plus it helps remind us when we may forget somethings.

  29. Hi Celesta,
    I was once right where you are today, including my husband moving out and wanting the benefits of marriage without the responsibility. He was also supporting another woman because she and her kids “needed him” and I should understand and not be so selfish. It’s a very difficult place to be. I know the haunting question you ask, “I am so confused is it me or him?” The answer, as you will learn, is – it is both of you. The good news is you have control over changing yourself. When you change yourself, he will no longer be able to treat you the same and get the same results. Therefore, he will find he has to change, too. Hang in there, girl. Trust what Kim & Steve have to say. Believe. Stay with the program. Good things really are waiting for you. Take my word for it, as someone who was once where you are right now. You do not have to stay with the shame, the pain, the confusion, the aching. Love, respect, and joy can once again be yours.

  30. My husband resists any attempts to connect him to older men. He’s pretty much convinced that he cannot trust anyone to mentor him unless he already knows that person agrees with his religious beliefs. He will not even set foot in my church, which is full of great older men and pastors who are trained to help people grow spiritually, not just to preach and pay bills. He insists on going to a church 30 minutes away because it’s got the closest theology to his of any in our big city, in spite of the fact that my health prevents me from driving so far and sitting so long consistently. He cannot see that his decision to go there has caused a separation between us and has cut me from the family in a real way. He thinks that my not going (despite the health problems) and any resulting separation is my fault, because I’m refusing to follow him as the leader of our family. I can see that you are giving very good advice, and I’ve seen in my own life that my husband desperately needs good male role models, but there’s not much I can do to make it happen.

  31. Hey Sarah!

    Have you tried the other suggestions in the other blog pages of Kim & Steve’s?

    Are you using the steps outlined and suggested in their ebooks?

  32. Darlyn,
    I just ran across this website a few days ago, so I haven’t even read all the information here, much less in the books. I appreciate the approach here. I have seen my own husband change a lot as have I in the last few years and many of the changes mirror what I’m seeing said here. I can also see that he and I share a common root problem and have both tended to play either the narcissist role or the co-dependent role in most of our relationships and it just happens that in our marriage he’s the narcissist and I’m the co-dependent. I’ve done a good bit of standing up to him in the last 5 years and it *has* helped. We are definitely not in as bad a place as we used to be. But there are just as definitely still things we need to work on. I’m not absolutely sure I need to buy the materials offered here, and my finances are tight enough I can’t just buy them without being 100% sure I’m supposed to. Right now I’m just absorbing as much as I can from the website and blog – still checking it out.

  33. Hey Sarah!
    Kim & Steve have a Narcissist and Co-dependent checklist available for us to compare some of the traits. They have alot of material and information to help you reach a closer idea or conclusion as to what you are currrently dealing with.

    They have updated their homepage/main page that should have the majority of the articles and such they have put out there to help us. Also check out the ‘Recent Post’ section at the top left hand side of this page – there are other links provided there.

    Hope to hear from you again.

  34. I’m sorry. Did I miss the memo? Since when did anyone get the idea that they have the obligation, or even just the right to be a surrogate parent to anyone other than those actually under their authority, such as children or employees? (And the latter is questionable, and certainly limited.) However subtle you may feel your gentle nudging to be, you simply don’t have the right to manipulate others in any way. Perhaps you’ve had a spouse, relative, or dear one, proclaim in exasperation that you’re not their parent. Take it to heart. They are correct, and you are not. You are doing nothing more than wielding you self-proclaimed superiority over another in a narcissistic attempt to exalt yourself. Except where law is concerned, no one is obliged to abandon anything you don’t approve of. And whatever behaviours your browbeating results in is your own fault.

    This is what you can, and ought to do: Set an example by properly managing your own affairs. If someone else’s behaviour proves (and I mean PROVES) detrimental to your performance in that capacity, then whatever distance and boundaries will restore your equilibrium are justified, but no more.

    Happy people in successful relationships have resorted to anything and everything from separate bathrooms to separate quarters; Anything to avoid such a total parting of the ways as a divorce.

    As superior as you think you are, you’ve yet to master the elegant art of guiding by example. It’s time to start.

    1. Hey Marcus, It is interesting that you have taken such offence at this article when finding healthy role models (and not surrogate parenting) is what this article is all about. If you subscribe to our site some of the first advice you will see that we offer there is to stop asking your partner to change and start leading by action (setting boundaries) and example. I suggest that you take a look at what we are all about here before you continue with any more haughty accusations. It sounds like you are in a relationship that is causing you to be defensive – but no one is your enemy here 🙂

  35. Both Marcus and Kim have a perspective into this – the question is, when normal relationship boundaries are broken, such as , a spouse in a house, who hits his wife in the face, is the wife allowed to phone authority figures, ( police ) to say , now, maybe you need to talk to an authority figure about this , and then, Marcus, might say , well, the NPD was a spouse in a house, where his wife, was perhaps asking for some connection at the adult level, such as talking about plans, or the children, and that was interupting his need to do something else, like go surfing . Yes, that spouse did interfere , with his right to be a free range fighting rooster . Many people with NPD enter marriage and have children, because they have a short range ability to make decisions, and so , its like entering a contract with a 3 year old, they are incapable of being held to their promise . They do need a lifetime of management, as there was something destroyed in their human nature as a child, that will not regrow unless they are kept inside of a constant state of high dicipline – military , corporate , sports, sailing , etc. To ask a woman, during her childbearing years, to be the equivalent of a drill seargant is unconsciounable. A woman in her fertile years , is the opposite of that . On top of that, there is a LOT of homosexual tendencies and deal making in these relationships with DADDY figures, very unnatural, as you soon find them living off of jobs and privelages, that should be for your own sons, but are going to the perceptive daddy figure letch, who is serving his own oriental wife with the abundance from your familys earnings . Sounds like a Stephen King novel, not a fairy tale, IF a man needs a DADDY when he is a DADDY , question it . Just think, do you need a mommy , when you are a mommy ? Dont you have your own feelings and relationship with your children to GUIDE you ? People with NPD are lacking feelings because of their rebellion against god, they think they are god, and so , they are cut off from feelings, THat makes them very dangerous people. It is like playing with a tiger in a cage. Kim is managing it, but Kim, that is not life .

  36. Hi Jennifer,

    I appreciate your comments and I hear a very sad story of your own coming through them – but I am not sure that you have read our story correctly.

    For starters I am not talking about a ‘sugar daddy’ nor drill seargant when I talk about daddy love – I am talking about a healthy relationship with a healthy older male role model father figure. There are numerous research studies and years of personal experience in male mentoring programs world wide to show that this is extremely beneficial as a remedial option.

    I would also argue that I am not ‘managing it’ and you implying I don’t have a life is just plain rude. I understand that you are hurting, but Jennifer if you don’t work on healing that hurt, you will inevitably end up hurting the people around you.

    As for whether women need motherly role models I say, “certainly!”. If you have grown up in a dysfunctional family and your expect instincts and your children alone to guide you developing healthy parenting skills I would suggest that is very irresponsible.

    You suggest your story is like a Steven King novel so how do you ever see yourself ending that horror if you cannot trust any older men to be role models for your husband and you yourself do not think that you need any?

  37. Hi Kim,
    Our religious beliefs aren’t about us, or our ego, they are God centered not man centered. The more you love God the stronger your beliefs not the more egotistical we become. We are protecting God’s rights not our own. Values are on the natural plane, reliogion is all on the supernatural. It is actually where we loose our egos. Know what I mean?

    1. Hi Kathleen, Living a spiritual life should make us lose our ego but unfortunately it doesn’t always work that way. I grew up in a church that was very focused on the fact that it’s beliefs made it’s members morally superior to others. This is a kind of egotistical group think that is prevailant everywhere and so I am sure that many people will not want to hear me say that. But after researching and writing about ego for many years it is a fact I cannot avoid discussing sometimes.

      I also wonder at you saying that God needs us to protect his rights? That’s certainly a new one to me.

      I would suggest that maybe you lose your fear about religious beliefs and just read the story for what I am attempting to share rather than get too caught up in having the correct beliefs. There is a lot of hard won wisdom in this story that has helped my family immensely and I am certainly not here to instruct people on spiritual matters beyond what is 100% useful and practical in dealing with their difficulties at home.

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